Prepare, Don’t Predict: Eloiza Domingo on Crisis Playbooks That Work

00:00:00: I really don't like the word

00:00:01: crisis management.

00:00:01: And that's really why I don't use it.

00:00:03: It's crisis leadership.

00:00:05: If you think about it that way,

00:00:06: it is that before, during, and after.

00:00:08: And it is leading through crisis

00:00:09: and understanding that

00:00:10: crisis is typical, but then also

00:00:12: constantly being around your staff

00:00:15: and your people

00:00:16: Building that type of trust

00:00:17: in that sentiment that

00:00:18: when you-know-what hits the fan,

00:00:20: they'll be like, "Oh, he wrote us

00:00:21: a nice letter.

00:00:22: I don't like what he said, but

00:00:23: like I remember him.

00:00:25: It was good."

00:00:25: so there's a lot of leadership

00:00:27: that needs to happen.

00:00:40: Hi, and welcome to a brand new

00:00:41: Aspire to Inspire Podcast episode.

00:00:44: My name is Athena Koutsonikolas, and I'm the Vice President of Marketing

00:00:48: in North America.

00:00:49: Today's guest is a powerhouse in

00:00:52: leadership, culture, and communication.

00:00:55: Eloiza Domingo is the founder and CEO of Eloiza Consulting.

00:01:00: She is also a culture innovator and crisis leadership expert,

00:01:04: and she partners with forward-thinking companies

00:01:07: to transform cultural challenges into opportunities for business growth.

00:01:12: Her leadership journey spans industries with previous roles as

00:01:16: Chief Inclusive Diversity and Equity Officer at Allstate,

00:01:19: Vice President of DEI at Astellas Pharma,

00:01:23: and Chief Diversity Officer at Johns Hopkins Medicine.

00:01:27: Eloiza is known for her fearless, future-focused approach to workplace

00:01:31: inclusion, especially in moments of crisis and change.

00:01:34: She's helped some of the world's most complex organizations navigate

00:01:38: with authenticity to align culture with business strategy

00:01:42: and build trust from the inside out.

00:01:45: Her leadership style isn't just smart, it's deeply human.

00:01:49: And in this episode, we'll dig into how Eloiza helps leaders

00:01:53: confront hard truths, communicate with heart, and embed

00:01:56: inclusive practices into the DNA of an organization.

00:02:01: If you've ever wondered how to align your internal narrative

00:02:03: with your external values, or how to lead when the world won't slow down,

00:02:08: this episode is definitely for you.

00:02:11: Eloiza, welcome to Aspire to Inspire.

00:02:14: We are super excited to have you here today.

00:02:16: And I know I'm really looking forward to diving in

00:02:19: to learn more about your career journey, but first off,

00:02:23: let's hear a little bit about who you are as a person.

00:02:26: Absolutely.

00:02:27: Thank you so much, Athena, and thank you for everybody

00:02:29: who's listening to the podcast, and of course, Athena, your team.

00:02:33: It's been a real joy to work with everybody to get to today.

00:02:36: Yeah, so Athena, you and I are about to talk about some hard topics.

00:02:40: You talk about crisis and you talk about the world

00:02:44: falling apart, which unfortunately, it is in a variety of ways,

00:02:48: but I think it's really important to remind people

00:02:51: that the work that we're doing is coming from human beings. So,

00:02:58: I'll share a little bit about my journey here in a second,

00:03:00: but I'm much more proud of me being a single mom.

00:03:03: I got divorced about five and a half years ago.

00:03:06: And that is an

00:03:08: important part of my journey because it allowed me to understand

00:03:11: how to take the bull by the horns, make some decisions on my own.

00:03:16: I am the daughter of immigrants from the Philippines that moved here.

00:03:21: They moved here in the 1970s for what they really believed was the American Dream.

00:03:26: And they're physicians, I am the second of three kids.

00:03:31: I'm actually the only one who didn't go into medicine.

00:03:32: My brother is a trauma surgeon.

00:03:34: My sister went into therapy.

00:03:37: I was like, "I'll just do diversity stuff." But I love the work that I do.

00:03:43: Like you said, I come from a lot of industries, including healthcare, pharmaceuticals.

00:03:47: I have five dogs, which is insane.

00:03:51: If I wasn't doing this work, I would actually be a vet.

00:03:53: And our five dogs are taken care of by myself and my four boys.

00:03:57: I have two sets of twins.

00:03:59: I have 17-year-old

00:04:00: twin boys who are seniors in high school, and they're looking to go into college.

00:04:04: My gosh.

00:04:06: Then I've got 12-year-old twin boys who are in seventh grade.

00:04:09: Doing this work as a DEI person, and doing the work

00:04:12: in crisis, and doing this work in strategic communications,

00:04:16: when you're single parenting biracial boys,

00:04:21: when you're doing this work and making sure

00:04:23: that you're reaching a lot of audiences, it does help to think

00:04:26: about me on the personal side, but also on the professional side.

00:04:29: And quite frankly, I also think it allows the work to be better.

00:04:32: So, I appreciate, Athena, you giving me a little bit of space

00:04:34: to bring that part into the conversation today.

00:04:39: Thank you so much for sharing.

00:04:40: And I can't even imagine how busy your household is.

00:04:44: You've got 10 occupants between two sets of twins, yourself, and the dogs.

00:04:49: A lot going on.

00:04:51: And yeah, definitely

00:04:53: identify with your story as a daughter of immigrants.

00:04:56: I'm also a daughter of immigrants.

00:04:58: So, power to you.

00:04:59: I know you know the certain dynamics

00:05:03: that comes with being part of an immigrant family,

00:05:07: and what our parents

00:05:10: go through in order to give us an opportunity in life.

00:05:13: So, thank you again for sharing that.

00:05:16: Absolutely.

00:05:18: I would love to get right in.

00:05:21: So, I want to start off with crisis because

00:05:25: it's something that communicators can dread.

00:05:29: So, when something is urgent,

00:05:33: emotional, or socially-charged,

00:05:36: leaders just feel this intense pressure to respond fast,

00:05:42: but we know that one misstep can completely erode trust.

00:05:48: You've coached leaders

00:05:49: through these emotionally-charged events, layoffs are an example of that.

00:05:54: So, when a crisis erupts, how do you guide

00:05:58: executives through the immediate decision-making process?

00:06:01: Like what to say, when to say it, and who should deliver the message?

00:06:05: Yeah, so, first of all, let me . . .

00:06:07: Crisis is a really big word, Athena, so at least for the conversation

00:06:11: that we're having

00:06:11: or the way that I approach crisis, let's just define it a little bit.

00:06:16: I may be doing myself kind of a disservice by saying this, but a crisis to me

00:06:20: is anything that takes your business away from business as usual.

00:06:25: The BAU of it, business as usual.

00:06:28: Every organization strives to get to that plateau, where every day

00:06:31: you're coming in, you can predict, I know how everything is going to go,

00:06:35: and it's all going to go great.

00:06:36: That actually is

00:06:37: why people start companies, and they think that's going to be the pinnacle.

00:06:41: What unfortunately companies do not do

00:06:44: is they don't build in this idea that crisis is inevitable.

00:06:49: There will be things that will take you off of business as usual

00:06:52: and then create an . . .

00:06:55: To me, there is opportunity in crisis.

00:06:58: Everybody says, especially strategic communicators, your field,

00:07:02: I've heard it actually from you all, "Don't let a good crisis go to waste."

00:07:05: And in order to do that, Athena, the biggest thing, and you noted it,

00:07:10: most of the time when crisis happens, leaders,

00:07:14: communicators, whatever, it's very easy for us to jump because that's human.

00:07:18: "Oh my gosh, my kid

00:07:20: broke their arm." Or, "Oh my gosh, I'm negative in my bank account."

00:07:24: So you have to rightsize the ship very quickly, that is totally normal.

00:07:28: The thing is though, is that how have you safeguarded

00:07:31: your organization so that you're not in that space?

00:07:35: So, let's pretend

00:07:37: that you're in an organization and you haven't had some of these discussions.

00:07:41: The number one thing that I would think about is the before, during, and after.

00:07:44: If you don't have the before of the crisis,

00:07:48: that during and after is going to be horrible.

00:07:51: that during and after is going to be horrible.

00:07:51: And then you're going to find yourself, like you said, Athena,

00:07:53: in those spaces where you're like, "Just say something." Or, "Do we say something?

00:07:56: I don't know." And that's a really, really bad place because you have about

00:08:01: 24 to 48 hours, honestly, in a big crisis, to decide

00:08:05: if you're going to say something, not going to say something, who is it?

00:08:08: How are you going to say?

00:08:09: What pronouns do I use? Is it I or we?

00:08:11: Those are big decisions.

00:08:13: So, take time, for the people out there that are thinking

00:08:16: about strategy, comms, PR.

00:08:20: Take the time, and there is merit in taking the time

00:08:23: to sitting and thinking, "Okay, what are the predictive

00:08:27: pitfalls that are going to happen to our organization?" RIFs,

00:08:30: going to happen at some point. Reduction in force, going to happen.

00:08:33: Economic downturns,

00:08:35: having a leader go off script

00:08:38: happen, product recall, social crises, like . . .

00:08:42: And again, crisis isn't always bad.

00:08:45: Black Lives Matter movement, Me Too movement, reverse of affirmative action.

00:08:49: Anything can happen.

00:08:51: How are you going to handle it so that you're actually using as an opportunity?

00:08:55: So that's your before.

00:08:57: And then that actually helps you, honestly, Athena,

00:08:59: to have kind of a roadmap to say, "Well, you know what?

00:09:03: We don't really, we didn't . . ."

00:09:05: For example, I worked for a pharmaceutical company,

00:09:09: and one of their top products was within prostate cancer.

00:09:13: And prostate cancer, the number one health equity population

00:09:17: for prostate cancer is African-American males that are over 40.

00:09:21: Okay?

00:09:21: So, more African American males over 40 do not get screened for prostate cancer

00:09:25: and therefore, actually, die quicker from prostate cancer than their peers.

00:09:29: So, as a result of that, that organization

00:09:33: leaned in to Black support, Black community,

00:09:37: African American medical support, African American health equity.

00:09:41: There was a business case to support the Black

00:09:44: population, and Black education, and Black health.

00:09:47: Okay?

00:09:48: So then, when Black Lives Matter happened, it was a clear, like, of course.

00:09:52: Of course we're going to do that.

00:09:53: Of course we're going to say that.

00:09:54: This organization also, however, did not do a lot in Hispanic

00:09:58: because again, there was no business case.

00:10:00: It doesn't mean that this organization was racist against Hispanic.

00:10:04: It wasn't that.

00:10:04: It was that there was not necessarily a business case.

00:10:08: That's also working, and we'll talk about that here,

00:10:09: I am not going to sit here and say you have to respond to every crisis

00:10:13: that has to do with a demographic background.

00:10:15: No, you do not, and you better not.

00:10:18: That is a slippery, slippery slope.

00:10:20: So, once you've established that before, the during

00:10:24: then allows you to say, "Okay, so take out the playbook then.

00:10:28: then allows you to say, "Okay, so take out the playbook then.

00:10:28: What are the values that we said that we have?

00:10:31: What is the business imperative?" And then from there, it actually helps you

00:10:35: to determine all of those who, what, when, where, how questions that you asked

00:10:39: earlier, Athena.

00:10:41: And then always do what I call an RCA, the root cause analysis

00:10:44: or the debrief at the end.

00:10:46: So, how did we do?

00:10:47: Because if you didn't say anything, and that's fine,

00:10:51: maybe in your root cause, you would say, "We probably should have,

00:10:55: so maybe we should revisit that." Those are some of the,

00:10:59: just kind of strategic things you really want to think about

00:11:02: because crisis will occur. It is inevitable.

00:11:05: It will take you off of business as usual, so how do you prepare?

00:11:09: Right. Super helpful.

00:11:12: I want to pull the thread on something that you noted earlier,

00:11:16: and that is around leaders going off script.

00:11:18: So, you talk about delivery style

00:11:22: as being critical to brand reputation.

00:11:25: In your experience, what does getting it right

00:11:28: actually look like, and how do you help execs move past the fear of maybe saying

00:11:34: the wrong thing, while still leaning into their sense of integrity?

00:11:38: Yes. I'm going to keep going back to this before, during, and after.

00:11:44: I've worked with a lot of communicators, and one of the things that I really,

00:11:47: I don't envy you on is you're honestly chasing

00:11:50: a lot of executives who are like, "I'm going to say this.

00:11:53: I'm good.

00:11:55: I'll write it." It's like, "Are you?" So, I don't envy that part.

00:12:01: Number one, and you all know this better than I do, having a relationship

00:12:05: with your executive or your principal, whoever that person is,

00:12:08: whoever your principal is, is really critical.

00:12:10: Knowing that they can trust you.

00:12:12: And again, I don't envy that because that is very, very difficult,

00:12:16: depending on who your principal is.

00:12:18: So, that's number one. Number two, and you already do this, but these media

00:12:22: packets are really critical.

00:12:23: I've worked a lot with leaders

00:12:27: who guffaw at these media preps and say, "I've been on magazines before.

00:12:32: I know how to handle this,"

00:12:34: but I've actually found that the people who, A,

00:12:36: have a trusting relationship with their comms people,

00:12:39: then can actually set up practice opportunities.

00:12:41: Even for me, I've been on the media a long time,

00:12:43: I've been a public speaker for a long time,

00:12:45: but every time I get into a company, I always have them prepare me.

00:12:49: I always have them say, "Give me a question, and I'm going to answer it."

00:12:53: And sometimes they'll say, "Eloiza, don't sit back like that

00:12:55: when you answer the question." I'm like, "Oh, okay," because it messages.

00:12:59: I mean, me sitting back, I'm sitting,

00:13:00: and you know that, this message is something different than me

00:13:03: doing like this, right? And leaning in.

00:13:05: Yeah, body language telegraphs so many things.

00:13:09: 100%. It is really critical to match whatever

00:13:12: brand you're trying to do.

00:13:15: So, A, it's, again, it's that before.

00:13:19: The during, one thing, an example, there was a . . .

00:13:23: One of the healthcare organizations that I worked for,

00:13:27: they were having a crisis around the Jewish population in that particular city.

00:13:32: It was like 13 years ago, so I really cannot remember

00:13:34: for the life of me, but it was tied to some world issues.

00:13:39: And our president contacted us

00:13:41: and said, "Hey, I want to say something.

00:13:45: I'm a little bit worried.

00:13:46: We have a very large Jewish population in the city and a very large

00:13:49: Jewish population that is our market." And of course, we agreed.

00:13:53: Yes, it's aligned to our business imperative, so that's a check.

00:13:56: So, what do you want to say?

00:13:58: And because he had a really good relationship with us,

00:14:00: this was on a Sunday, he called, and we just had an emergency meeting.

00:14:05: And we went back and forth, and back and forth, and back and forth.

00:14:08: One of our communicators said, "You know what, do you want to just write a letter

00:14:12: to the organization?

00:14:13: Do you just want to write something?" And it was one of those things

00:14:15: where we literally were like, no one knew what to say.

00:14:19: And this communicator bravely just said,

00:14:22: "We've never done it before, but what if you just write a letter?" Athena,

00:14:25: he said, and I said earlier about pronouns, everything he wrote was I.

00:14:29: The first sentence was, "I'm sitting on my couch and I'm watching CNN,"

00:14:35: and he just described what he was seeing.

00:14:37: "And I'm so hurt by what I'm seeing, not because I identify . . .

00:14:42: I understand what it means to be Jewish

00:14:44: or Jewish American, but because, dah-dah-dah, I, I , I."

00:14:49: And it literally was like three paragraphs of just him as a human.

00:14:54: And then at the end, it was like, institution name, as the president

00:14:58: of institution name, I really believe, insert values,

00:15:03: and we insert discriminatory statement, dah-dah-dah, insert dah-dah-dah.

00:15:06: The comms, we put that in there, and he was like, "I stand with you.

00:15:11: I don't believe in this.

00:15:13: I'm sitting on my couch and I can imagine that

00:15:15: probably you're doing the same." Mark.

00:15:18: And it was like, "What?" People were floored

00:15:23: The humility of that . . .

00:15:26: That was one of the things, but again, I don't think that that would've happened

00:15:30: had he not had a very clear and distinct relationship

00:15:33: with the strategic communications team, the diversity team at the time.

00:15:38: And then we all decided, "I don't really know what you're going to say

00:15:41: about the institution, but I can tell, you just want to say something human.

00:15:45: We're going to go with that, but let's do something that . . . "

00:15:47: Again, it's an opportunity, and man, his sentiment numbers,

00:15:52: I mean, it was like through the roof.

00:15:55: People were actually

00:15:56: downloading the letter, and people shared it with other people.

00:15:59: We were actually seeing it kind of go viral.

00:16:01: People were taking it and putting it on their Facebook like,

00:16:04: "Our president said this." Like, "Yes, I was on my couch, too."

00:16:07: It was like this social movement before Facebook existed, really.

00:16:12: So, again, the before, during, and after is really critical.

00:16:15: Having that relationship and having even playing out

00:16:18: like what would happen if, is also really helpful.

00:16:23: I absolutely love that story

00:16:27: in leadership authenticity.

00:16:28: It's such a good one.

00:16:31: You mentioned the sentiment associated with this leader,

00:16:34: so I want to turn now to employee sentiment.

00:16:38: I know that you've seen employee sentiment

00:16:40: actually improve after a major restructuring.

00:16:45: What are some of those strategies that helped turn a really tough moment

00:16:49: for an organization into something that was actually trust-building?

00:16:52: One of the hardest parts about transformation, and we use that term

00:16:56: so much these days.

00:16:59: Unfortunately, it's been tied to transformation equals RIFs,

00:17:03: or AI coming in, or both, or whatever like that.

00:17:07: I think that there is a . . .

00:17:10: I liken it to when I got my divorce,

00:17:13: and my ex-husband and I were just back and forth and back and forth.

00:17:17: Often people say, "Oh, we're staying for the kids."

00:17:20: And I remember when we finally decided it's just time to split.

00:17:25: The older twins, I think they were like 12-ish at the time,

00:17:28: and I spoke with them like a year later and I said, "Daddy and I still love you.

00:17:34: How do you feel about everything?"

00:17:35: And they were like, "Mom, we knew the whole time."

00:17:39: My point is this, we often underestimate our audience.

00:17:43: We often underestimate that like, "No, we're keeping it from them." They're good.

00:17:46: They're totally into this.

00:17:49: And when we drop these comms, it's,

00:17:52: I have found that there is definitely a balance

00:17:55: between being as transparent as possible,

00:17:59: while at the same time, there is still risk mitigation

00:18:01: and there is still kind of the managing of the message.

00:18:05: The best ways that I've seen it is

00:18:08: leaning more towards transparency, number one.

00:18:11: Number two, don't use corporate verbiage when you're . . .

00:18:16: It is really hard because there is such a thing as corporate speak.

00:18:20: I could close my eyes and write a paragraph in corporate speak

00:18:23: and not even know I did it because I did it.

00:18:25: I've just lived in that world for so long.

00:18:28: What I found is that when we had, as I mentioned this one,

00:18:31: the healthcare example.

00:18:33: When it was simple and it was just

00:18:36: like, we're going through a hard time.

00:18:39: I acknowledge that.

00:18:41: This is hard for me, too, and I know it's going to be hard,

00:18:44: but I'm asking you to allow me to be here with you as a leader.

00:18:48: That means so much different like, "Hey, everybody.

00:18:51: Listen, our culture here is critical, and we really like

00:18:55: Eloiza consulting culture, and you are part of this.

00:18:58: That's why it's critical for you to understand . . . "

00:18:59: Are you kidding?

00:19:00: Come on.

00:19:01: So, what we found is that slowing down the pace, slowing down the tonality,

00:19:07: reteaching leaders how to speak,

00:19:10: it's the same message, it's the same objective.

00:19:13: You're going to get to the same place, out of the trees.

00:19:17: There's just a different way to say it.

00:19:19: So, finding that balance and being able to rewrite that script a little bit.

00:19:25: I will tell you that there are moments when I've coached an executive.

00:19:29: We all live in these rectangles.

00:19:31: Like me and you right now, Athena, we're doing this whole thing on a rectangle.

00:19:34: I've coached leaders, and I encourage you all

00:19:38: as communicators, coach them on even the personal space.

00:19:41: Like, if you're going to do this,

00:19:44: coach them

00:19:45: on the lighting, coach them on everything.

00:19:49: Even the demonstratives, you know like this, all of this actually

00:19:53: makes a difference when you're talking about crisis, change, transformation.

00:19:58: Everyone's going to fall off a cliff here in a second.

00:20:00: It actually makes a difference because what happens is then, that's what I found,

00:20:04: is the sentiment numbers are like, "That news really sucked,

00:20:07: but I really felt like he was being honest.

00:20:10: That she was being real.

00:20:12: It didn't feel like a script she was just talking.

00:20:16: And she actually took time to look at us and to say . . ."

00:20:19: Because again, just don't underestimate your audience.

00:20:22: They already know.

00:20:24: So, those are some of the things that I've noticed that, again,

00:20:27: it's not the message that changes.

00:20:28: It's the way that you deliver it.

00:20:30: And the sentiment numbers, ironically, go up.

00:20:32: It's actually the trust. It's not the sentiment.

00:20:34: It's the trust that goes up.

00:20:35: Like get this, "I may or may not lose my job,

00:20:37: but my gosh, why do I all of a sudden feel like

00:20:40: you see me as a human being, like we're here together?

00:20:44: This is a part of the culture." So, I've seen it over and over and over again.

00:20:48: It is those non-verbals and paraverbals.

00:20:51: It's not the verbal, it's the everything else that surrounds

00:20:54: that message.

00:20:56: Yeah, that is such helpful advice.

00:20:58: I remember one of the best pieces of advice I ever received

00:21:01: from a former CMO and CCO was use plain speaking language,

00:21:06: because it's way more resonant, but you're right, there's also the non-verbal cues.

00:21:12: Also the things that we're wearing as well.

00:21:15: There's certain colors, and color palettes,

00:21:17: and patterns that you want to avoid when you're making certain announcements.

00:21:21: Yes, 100%.

00:21:22: We had a leader, it was really interesting,

00:21:26: and whenever he would give messages, he would stand.

00:21:31: He would actually get rid of the chair.

00:21:33: We could always tell when he was standing.

00:21:36: And so what was interesting is he would move.

00:21:41: It was amazing.

00:21:42: He would actually get people

00:21:43: to log in to his presentations and watch them afterwards.

00:21:46: And I thought, "I wonder

00:21:48: why is that?" And we started asking questions.

00:21:51: It just felt like you were in the room with him.

00:21:53: Like he was mobile.

00:21:54: He was moving.

00:21:56: It felt very free.

00:21:57: It didn't feel like kind of restricted.

00:21:59: So, that was also really, really interesting.

00:22:02: I actually, subsequently have used that.

00:22:04: If I'll do main stage presentations, this is obviously

00:22:09: almost like a fireside, but I have stood.

00:22:12: I've actually gotten people to say like, "Is she standing?

00:22:14: That's cool.

00:22:15: Wow." Again, Athena, like you said, the little things really do matter.

00:22:20: Yes, and that's so incredibly humanizing.

00:22:23: What a great tactic.

00:22:25: I want to shift gears now

00:22:28: to leading with values in a divided world

00:22:32: because that is honestly the state that we find ourselves in these days.

00:22:37: And you know better than anyone that

00:22:40: being silent can seem complicit,

00:22:43: but then, speaking up can also be a little risky.

00:22:48: So, I'd love to talk about what it means to lead with values,

00:22:52: especially when public perception is on the line.

00:22:56: We know that today's consumers

00:22:58: and employees are incredibly perceptive, as you've noted.

00:23:02: They can smell the BS, right?

00:23:04: So, how do you help companies communicate

00:23:08: with authenticity when that public scrutiny is really high?

00:23:12: Yeah, so, let's talk about that word 'values' a little bit.

00:23:16: So, organizations, whether it's not-for-profits

00:23:20: or for-profits, we use that terminology

00:23:23: 'values' in a very romantic way.

00:23:27: The fact of the matter is though, is that

00:23:30: the values are tied still to profit

00:23:33: margins, employee numbers, employee sentiment, money, quite frankly.

00:23:38: Everything really is tied to the bottom line.

00:23:41: That is not unromantic for me to say, that is realistic.

00:23:45: And so, I never want people to be like, "Oh, it's just our value."

00:23:49: Target values diversity.

00:23:51: People may write into your podcast and be like, "No, they don't." Yes, they do.

00:23:55: Even though Target,

00:23:59: I'm putting this in quotes, "closed" their DEI

00:24:02: programming, Costco did not, and other organizations did not.

00:24:06: And people say, "Oh, they didn't value diversity," or Disney,

00:24:10: or Starbucks, or any of these companies that changed things.

00:24:14: Values for a company also have to do with what are the risks, as you noted,

00:24:18: what are the monetary risks, what are the risks politically,

00:24:22: what are the risks with lobbyists, especially if you're a for-profit.

00:24:27: There are so many things that you have to think about.

00:24:30: It is very difficult for a large company, especially to say that, "I value this,"

00:24:36: and not think about all the dominoes that'll fall for people

00:24:38: who don't believe otherwise.

00:24:40: So, I really don't want strategic communicators

00:24:46: or anybody to think, "Oh, we can lead with values really without thinking about

00:24:49: the monetary risk, the political risk, those kinds of things." Because often,

00:24:52: it's not that people don't say anything because they don't value it.

00:24:55: Oftentimes, they don't say it because there is a risk.

00:25:00: Again, the risk is larger than the gain.

00:25:03: And so, that's one of the things that I know that communicators already do that,

00:25:07: but to really fully understand what that risk is, will then allow you

00:25:11: to also push against your leadership to say, "Well, I recognize this risk."

00:25:16: Again, the way that I would do it is I would say, "Here's Black Lives Matter,"

00:25:20: for example. Okay, so we're aligning a business case.

00:25:23: If you say this, here's your gain.

00:25:25: If you say this, this is your risk.

00:25:27: All of this is what I do is I often just give organizations a menu.

00:25:30: So, you can choose to do whatever you want,

00:25:33: but I'm going to be very honest with you and tell you, "This is the risk

00:25:35: that you will assume, and this is the gain

00:25:36: that you will assume." An organization has to make, just like the consumers do,

00:25:40: they have to make an intelligent decision given all of the information

00:25:44: that you as communicators give them and leaders give them.

00:25:48: That's really what I found is you can actually help

00:25:50: lead an organization quicker if you're able to just objectively

00:25:54: give them, "These are the risks

00:25:55: that are going to happen, these are the gains

00:25:56: that are going to happen from your market, to your consumers, to your profit,

00:26:00: to your investors, to your suppliers, everything,"

00:26:03: that's typically what we would do, "and then this is the gain to it."

00:26:07: So, once those things are established, then, and I know many people already have this,

00:26:13: but if you don't have what I call like a branching model,

00:26:17: so at the top, the crisis is dropped in.

00:26:21: Is this a crisis that aligns with a business imperative?

00:26:24: If it's yes, great.

00:26:25: Then, what are the risks?

00:26:27: What are the whatever? Then you assess those.

00:26:29: Then from there, do we say something?

00:26:30: If the answer is yes, who says it?

00:26:32: And so, it's constantly this branching model,

00:26:35: but again,

00:26:36: I think the biggest thing that I would advise everybody is don't

00:26:39: get caught up in this word 'values' as if it's this romantic kind of thing.

00:26:44: You can do that in your family and you can do that

00:26:46: when you're in a relationship, but not when you're helping

00:26:48: to run a company and you're keeping a company.

00:26:51: You're mitigating the risk, but also gaining followership.

00:26:54: Value is really tied to money.

00:26:57: Again, I'm being very unromantic

00:26:58: about the word 'value', but as a Chief Diversity Officer, as a former

00:27:02: Chief Diversity Officer, the best way for me to lead a company

00:27:06: is to have them understand how that was an operation of the company.

00:27:10: It wasn't, yes, do we value diversity? Sure.

00:27:13: So, and what? And how do we show it?

00:27:16: What are you doing?

00:27:17: Who are you aligned with in Congress?

00:27:19: Who are your lobbyists? Who are you this?

00:27:22: That's the biggest thing that I would advise is thinking about that risk-benefit

00:27:26: analysis, making sure that you're providing everything objectively,

00:27:29: but also understanding how value is tied to your bottom line.

00:27:33: Got it.

00:27:34: And something that I want to pull the thread on, you noted

00:27:38: this kind of decision tree or branching that you build out for leaders.

00:27:43: So, say we have a scenario where you've provided that decision

00:27:47: support to a leadership team

00:27:49: and they're like, "Yes, we're going to go all in

00:27:52: and we're going to take this company stance."

00:27:55: How should internal messaging align or differ from what

00:27:59: is being communicated to the public during these sensitive or high-stakes moments?

00:28:03: Yes, great. That's a great, great note.

00:28:05: Overcommunicating internally is really critical.

00:28:10: Making sure that before anything goes out, you've essentially

00:28:13: got all of these, what we call, heads-ups, right?

00:28:17: So making sure that you have that heads-up model.

00:28:20: Who is it getting to? What are you saying?

00:28:22: The other thing, to your point, is

00:28:25: it's not just alignment, but it's also FAQs.

00:28:29: So, we're about to release, I'm just going to say with Black Lives Matter,

00:28:32: we're about to release Black Lives Matter, this is what it's going to say.

00:28:38: Here's the date, here's all the facts of it.

00:28:41: Okay, so what you're going to do is before this goes live, leader,

00:28:45: manager of people, whatever, you're going to announce this to your staff.

00:28:49: Here's what you're going to say, script, script, script, script

00:28:52: and then FAQs.

00:28:54: And that level of preparedness, again, that before is so critical.

00:28:58: The during and after is critical as well, but the before should be much,

00:29:03: much larger, and constantly revisited. So,

00:29:07: empowering your leaders to own that message.

00:29:11: It's not, "Hey, we're about to put this up.

00:29:13: Good luck.

00:29:14: It is empowering them

00:29:16: because it's not that the organization put it out, it's that we put this out.

00:29:20: You are going to know how to talk about this.

00:29:22: It's actually nice because it's actually a managerial skill

00:29:25: that you are actually underlining and providing to your leadership.

00:29:29: I'm going to help you

00:29:30: to be a strategic communicator, I'm going to help you

00:29:32: be a leader of this organization, but I'm also going to help you script this.

00:29:37: I would also be very clear about how it is that you're sharing this.

00:29:40: Do not forward your FAQ to anybody.

00:29:42: It is only for your eyes.

00:29:44: Do not put this on writing. You know what I'm saying?

00:29:46: Like, "You're going to have your meeting at ten o'clock Eastern.

00:29:49: Everybody's going to go into this room." Dah-dah-dah.

00:29:51: "If somebody is missing, you will just . . ."

00:29:55: Again, risk mitigation, of course, is really, really important,

00:29:58: and you all know this more than I do,

00:30:00: is controlling the message and controlling it.

00:30:02: And then also making sure, I always write in, "Your approach should be

00:30:06: comm, objective, this and this.

00:30:10: We prefer that you not put in your personal opinion.

00:30:13: Stick to the script, essentially.

00:30:15: If you have any issues, we can always be there for you or with you,"

00:30:19: those kinds of things.

00:30:20: So, a lot of it is not that there's misalignment or alignment,

00:30:25: it's that there's a huge amount of prep on the internal end.

00:30:28: Typically, what I've seen is external comms is like maybe four sentences.

00:30:33: "We believe in this.

00:30:35: We don't align with blah-blah.

00:30:38: We will always stand for." Done.

00:30:41: And then there should be a whole lot more over here on this back end.

00:30:46: And again,

00:30:46: a lot of it is empowering your people to own your organization's message.

00:30:51: That's really, to me, the most critical part of it.

00:30:55: And more on that

00:30:56: in a minute, but I have one last question on this topic.

00:30:59: And you've already given us some answers around like preparation

00:31:04: and the importance of preparation when it comes to crisis,

00:31:07: but if you could summarize for us some recommendations

00:31:11: that companies need to put in place before a crisis hits

00:31:15: to ensure that they're completely prepared to reach and support every employee.

00:31:20: Yes, absolutely.

00:31:21: So, number one, that before, during, and after, Athena, you need to actually

00:31:25: have what we would always call a SWAT team or your crisis team.

00:31:30: Typically, that engages communications, PR,

00:31:34: so internal and external comms, PR, so anybody within that space.

00:31:38: Typically, government relations.

00:31:40: I'm going broad here, but government relations,

00:31:43: legal, HR, DEI, sometimes finance.

00:31:48: But typically, those are your — and security —

00:31:51: depending on what happens. But typically,

00:31:55: you have a SWAT team or you have a crisis team.

00:31:58: So, if you don't have that established, oh my gosh,

00:32:02: then you really are going in blind.

00:32:04: You're like, "Everything will be great." No.

00:32:06: [Athena Koutsonikolas: You're in blind.] Exactly.

00:32:08: In the same way that you have an operations team, you have a diversity

00:32:11: team, you have your CEO team, you probably should put together your parachute team.

00:32:18: And then they need to be getting together regularly.

00:32:20: They do need to have this branch out model.

00:32:22: And the number one thing,

00:32:24: Athena, that I always say, simulation, simulation, simulation, simulation.

00:32:28: In healthcare, simulation was a very big thing.

00:32:30: For example, we would call a code blue.

00:32:33: It didn't matter. We were in the hospital.

00:32:34: They would typically have a mannequin.

00:32:36: So, I remember I worked for this pharmaceutical company,

00:32:39: they called a code blue.

00:32:40: They put an adult male mannequin

00:32:44: up against a vending machine in a pediatric institution.

00:32:48: And you don't tell anybody that this is a sim, so everybody goes.

00:32:53: You have a sim person standing there taking notes.

00:32:55: Simulation person taking notes.

00:32:57: I remember watching this.

00:32:59: This is one of the top pediatric institutions in the world, by the way.

00:33:02: So, the crash cart comes.

00:33:04: They didn't have adult gauge needles.

00:33:08: So, this patient, and it wasn't even a patient.

00:33:10: It was a dad of a patient.

00:33:14: The mannequin died.

00:33:16: They couldn't find . . . You know what I'm saying?

00:33:18: So they were like, "Oh my gosh, everybody go look at the crash carts now."

00:33:23: So, because we

00:33:23: were a pediatric institution, we didn't have these adult gauges around,

00:33:27: but how could we have known that on a regular basis?

00:33:33: So, anyway, figuring out those things, number one.

00:33:35: But then also, number two, especially in a corporate situation, what we found

00:33:38: is that when we had a sim or when we had the SWAT team,

00:33:43: it typically was like the vice president of this, the vice president of this.

00:33:47: All of a sudden, in a crisis, we pulled six vice presidents.

00:33:51: And some of them had deputies and some of them didn't.

00:33:53: Honestly, some of the smaller operations completely closed down

00:33:57: when their vice president went to a crisis.

00:34:00: So, how are you continuing to run business as usual

00:34:03: when you're having a crisis and you're a vice president?

00:34:05: So, again,

00:34:06: the sims actually allow you to be like, "Oh crap, did we just shut down that

00:34:11: part of the company?

00:34:12: Why?" It's like, "We've got the vice president over here."

00:34:15: It's like, oh my gosh.

00:34:16: So, it actually exposes a lot of your risks operationally.

00:34:21: Again, SWAT team or your crisis team, get your branching model together,

00:34:25: run your sims on a regular basis, and be real about it.

00:34:29: You know, that, to me, is really safeguarding.

00:34:31: It's the same thing as if you're in a house like mine with the 10 people,

00:34:35: good job doing the math, and I run a fire alarm at three o'clock in the morning.

00:34:40: Who's getting the leashes?

00:34:43: Where's the little one?

00:34:44: We have a puppy running around here somewhere.

00:34:46: I don't know where he is.

00:34:46: What's the procedure?

00:34:48: Yes, exactly.

00:34:49: Who's grabbing the puppy?

00:34:51: Where is the ladder?

00:34:53: It's all of those things.

00:34:54: It's actually really not that hard,

00:34:57: but again, we set up these businesses because we want to plateau to success.

00:35:01: That's what we think about.

00:35:02: We don't think about the crisis is going to hit.

00:35:05: That's the thing: Know that crisis is inevitable.

00:35:07: It is going to happen, so get your team together.

00:35:11: I love that example, and I love that you touched on your experience in the hospital

00:35:16: because I do want to switch over now to discuss inclusive communication.

00:35:21: When I think about inclusive communication, I think about

00:35:24: how we communicate to both desk workers and the front line.

00:35:27: So, you've led in major healthcare institutions like Johns Hopkins

00:35:33: Medicine, where many employees, they're on the front lines, right?

00:35:37: They're medical professionals.

00:35:39: They're not tethered to their laptops and computers the way you and I are.

00:35:43: So, what lessons did you take from that experience about how to build

00:35:47: trust and connection between leadership and those who are on the front line?

00:35:51: Yeah, so, a couple of things, and I should have said this earlier

00:35:55: just in the former question that you had for me, Athena.

00:35:58: Even though you have your SWAT team, and typically SWAT teams,

00:36:00: you do need vice presidents or people who can make decisions

00:36:03: because that really is how a SWAT team works.

00:36:05: You also need to have the tentacles.

00:36:07: And so, those people, when you're writing the comms, inclusive

00:36:11: communications is also about who is seeing the comms before it goes out?

00:36:16: Because typically, it's the same five people.

00:36:18: It's lawyers, it's this, it's the DEI person, it's this.

00:36:22: And we are a privileged few that will look at it and be like, "I'm

00:36:26: good." I haven't worked on the front lines for probably 19 years.

00:36:32: Even though I have a sensitivity to it, that's not my everyday.

00:36:35: So, if I see something, I'm going to be like,

00:36:37: "It works for me." We will oftentimes say that.

00:36:41: What about, like you said, everyone else?

00:36:44: So, making sure that when you have that SWAT team, you keep your tentacles

00:36:48: and you have your trusted advisors that are looking at those things

00:36:52: and saying, "Yes, from a front line perspective,

00:36:53: that makes sense." Or, "No, why are you using the word photosynthesis?

00:36:57: That doesn't even make any sense to us," so simplify, simplify, simplify.

00:37:00: The other thing too, again, is managing crisis,

00:37:04: leading through crisis, means constantly thinking about this.

00:37:08: So, I'm going to go back to that example earlier where the leader of a healthcare

00:37:12: institution, he wrote a letter using the pronoun I.

00:37:16: One of the reasons also too, why it was so easily digestible

00:37:20: to get that letter is because he walked around the hospital all the time.

00:37:24: He was always around the front line staff.

00:37:26: He would always go up and ask, "How was your day?" Or like,

00:37:29: "How is this?" I remember he would walk up to

00:37:34: the places and be like,

00:37:35: and he would watch the flow of traffic, and he . . .

00:37:38: Like "Undercover Boss."

00:37:39: Yes. It was actually really interesting.

00:37:42: He was like, "Why is the rug always wet?

00:37:45: Somebody get them a new rug."

00:37:46: Just something he probably wouldn't have noticed if he was just in his office.

00:37:50: Yes, so in crisis, it's not . . .

00:37:54: I really don't like the word crisis management.

00:37:56: And that's really why I don't use it.

00:37:57: It's crisis leadership.

00:37:59: If you think about it that way, it is that before, during, and after.

00:38:03: It is leading through

00:38:03: crisis and understanding that, again, crisis is typical, but then also

00:38:07: constantly being around your staff and your people

00:38:12: and thinking about those things, building that type of trust

00:38:16: and that sentiment that you and I talked about earlier.

00:38:18: When you know what hits the fan, they'll be like, "Oh, he wrote us a

00:38:22: nice letter.

00:38:23: I don't like what he said, but I kind of remember him.

00:38:26: It was good." You know, so yes, so there's a lot of leadership that needs

00:38:30: to happen.

00:38:32: Some really important tips there.

00:38:34: And I love the reminder around what I call 'who else needs to know',

00:38:39: which can be an easy oversight in a highly-complex management organization.

00:38:44: It's easily done.

00:38:47: On this topic,

00:38:49: how do you or how have you partnered with functions

00:38:53: like HR and IT to more effectively ensure every employee, especially those on

00:38:59: the front lines, feels important,

00:39:02: feels informed, rather connected and valued?

00:39:05: Yeah, you know, IT is a really big one, Athena.

00:39:07: When you were talking about how to make sure

00:39:09: that people get some of that information, just like you said,

00:39:13: it was very easy to put a Slack message up

00:39:16: or whatever because we're sitting in front of our computers.

00:39:19: but, like you said, that's also a very privileged part of the organization.

00:39:23: Many people are either out in the field, they're working with patients.

00:39:26: Or, not even in healthcare, in conservation.

00:39:30: They're out in an ocean, for goodness sake.

00:39:34: Or anything that you might be doing.

00:39:36: So, IT did a really nice job.

00:39:38: I have always worked with IT

00:39:39: to say, "Okay, so give me the percentage of individuals that are sitting

00:39:42: in front of their computer, and if this message goes out now, who

00:39:46: am I missing?" So, this idea of accessibility,

00:39:48: and then, how are we going to get that to them? I remember in one organization,

00:39:51: we had a lot of people who actually, we didn't have laptops assigned to everybody.

00:39:56: Just, sometimes they would have to go into a computer lab.

00:39:59: I didn't know that.

00:40:00: I didn't know that.

00:40:01: I always thought that everybody got a laptop.

00:40:02: Their job didn't need them to have a laptop.

00:40:05: They had access to a laptop, but they're not going to be sitting there.

00:40:09: And so, we did have to have a variety of ways with HR and IT.

00:40:14: So, do they have it on their phone?

00:40:16: Is there some sort of alert system on their phones?

00:40:18: And then HR, we would also,

00:40:21: similar to what we talked about earlier, Athena, in terms of this

00:40:25: communication matrix,

00:40:27: for some of those individuals that are not in front of a phone or not

00:40:29: in front of a laptop, we would say, "Okay, everybody needs to call a staff

00:40:32: meeting now.

00:40:33: We need to get everybody in front.

00:40:35: We're going to do a quick-quick." And especially in high turnover

00:40:39: or high volume, high-paced healthcare situations,

00:40:43: we would have to repeat that staff meeting, like every 45 minutes

00:40:46: over the course of several hours, so that everybody got the information.

00:40:49: So, you know, there are ways.

00:40:51: It's understanding the flow of your organization,

00:40:55: understanding who has access, not making assumptions.

00:40:58: I know I did that.

00:40:59: I assumed everybody had phone and email.

00:41:02: And then working, like you said, with the key audiences like finance,

00:41:06: communications, and HR to say, "Where are our people,

00:41:10: and what is the timeframe in which we have to communicate this?"

00:41:13: Because again, 24 to 48 hours to make sure everybody's on the same page,

00:41:17: how are we going to do that?

00:41:18: Yes, it is, I like what you're saying,

00:41:20: make sure, again, your SWAT team should be a part of that,

00:41:23: and your simulations can also help you. It's

00:41:26: quite the production.

00:41:28: It reminds me of like, it's kind of the undertaking of a stage producer, right?

00:41:34: There's a lot there.

00:41:35: Yes. Well, and you know this.

00:41:38: If you look at the way that any government runs or any major family runs,

00:41:44: if you have all of your major crises covered, like,

00:41:48: "I know where we're going to go if the bus is off,"

00:41:52: or "I know where you're going to go if mommy isn't home

00:41:54: and you don't have your key." Okay, so we know all of that.

00:41:56: We've run all of that. Why?

00:41:58: Because I care about you, I care about our culture, family.

00:42:01: I care about everybody being okay.

00:42:03: I care about everybody being empowered to run your own life.

00:42:06: Again, it makes really a lot of sense.

00:42:08: Oftentimes, it is quite a production for a large organization, you're right.

00:42:13: But, just think about it from that vantage point.

00:42:18: And oftentimes, the dominoes are actually a little bit easier to understand.

00:42:21: Right. Again, preparation is key.

00:42:24: That's right.

00:42:25: Now, you've clearly lived at the intersection

00:42:28: of leadership, comms, culture,

00:42:31: and it sounds like you've also shepherded

00:42:35: teams and organizations through some really tough moments.

00:42:38: So, looking back on your leadership journey from your experience

00:42:43: in healthcare, to pharma, to insurance, to now consulting,

00:42:48: what is one lesson that has stayed with you?

00:42:53: It is really

00:42:55: leading with

00:42:56: authenticity and people don't . . .

00:43:00: That word is often overused.

00:43:02: But it really is to be able to say that

00:43:06: the Eloiza that I see in front of me at times when we're celebrating

00:43:11: and the Eloiza that shows up when we're about to RIF 800 people,

00:43:16: if people know that you are really, really being authentic,

00:43:20: and it is amazing how you really can do

00:43:24: and say a lot as a leader and as a communicator

00:43:28: if people believe and feel that you are just being authentic.

00:43:34: And I know that that's hard, especially in a viral or digital space.

00:43:39: It is difficult in a rectangle to know who I am.

00:43:44: But that's also why

00:43:47: there are so many different ways to do that.

00:43:50: there are so many different ways to do that.

00:43:50: So, again, I would say, Athena,

00:43:52: the number one thing that has served me well from . . .

00:43:56: Because I have had to give a lot . . .

00:43:58: A Chief Diversity Officer, we always have to give hard answers.

00:44:01: We really do. It is not uncommon. And

00:44:05: DEI, for me, is

00:44:07: you're never really in a win-win.

00:44:08: You're almost always in a lose-lose, because some people will love what you say

00:44:12: and some people will not hate, despise what

00:44:16: you just said and what you stand for.

00:44:19: I mean, it is a lot. So, that's fine, but you also know who I am.

00:44:26: You know that there's still, you've said it,

00:44:29: I'm going to use your word, this thread.

00:44:31: That is the number one thing that I would say,

00:44:35: and just don't overcomplicate it.

00:44:38: Simple, simple, simple, simple.

00:44:40: The simpler the words, the more direct that you are, you don't get caught

00:44:45: up, and people are like, "Come on, I know you can read.

00:44:48: I know what you're saying." It's like, "Well," you know.

00:44:51: Those would be, I know you asked for one, but those are really the two things

00:44:54: that have served me well in pro situations, but also the harder situations as well.

00:45:01: Well, thank you so much, Eloiza.

00:45:03: It's just been an absolute pleasure to have you share your wisdom

00:45:07: with us today and your approach to leading

00:45:10: with courage, clarity, authenticity.

00:45:13: It's exactly what so many organizations in this climate need right now.

00:45:19: Where can our listeners find out more about you and your work?

00:45:23: Yes. What we're going to do

00:45:24: is we're going to link all of the social media platforms.

00:45:27: Of course, I'm on LinkedIn, and I've got a lot of videos on Instagram.

00:45:33: And I actually talk about authenticity, like how to do that in one-on-one

00:45:37: conversations like this, one-to-group, how to take really hard conversations

00:45:42: and do that.

00:45:42: And then I also have my own podcast where we talk about disruption.

00:45:46: And crisis is really a part of disruption, but how you're leading through it.

00:45:49: So, we'll provide all of that information through you all, kindly.

00:45:53: Yes, I do.

00:45:55: If you're out there, please connect with me.

00:45:56: It would be great to continue this conversation

00:45:58: because it is, it's so important, and especially now when we're dealing

00:46:02: with a lot of tough things.

00:46:05: Most definitely.

00:46:06: Well, thank you so much again, Eloiza.

00:46:08: It was such a pleasure.

00:46:11: I'm Athena Koutsonikolas, and I really hope you enjoyed this episode

00:46:14: of Aspire to Inspire. I sure did.

00:46:16: And be sure to join us again, and definitely check out the resources

00:46:21: that we will provide for Eloiza to learn more about what she's doing.

00:46:28: Hey, if you're getting value from today's conversation,

00:46:31: make sure you subscribe right now

00:46:33: so you don't miss any future episodes of the Aspire to Inspire Podcast.