The human algorithm: Balancing empathy, tech & leadership with Pinaki Kathiari

00:00:00: For me, in communications, I really want to be sure and certain

00:00:02: For me, in communications, I really want to be sure and certain

00:00:04: that what I'm thinking and what comes out of my mouth

00:00:07: is translated in a correct way for whoever is now taking it in

00:00:11: because they're going to take some action on it.

00:00:13: So it's like if I'm not aiming it correctly,

00:00:16: we could miss the target.

00:00:17: we could miss the target.

00:00:30: Hello, everyone, and welcome

00:00:32: to a brand-new episode of the Aspire to Inspire Podcast.

00:00:36: My name is Lottie Bazley,

00:00:37: and I am an Internal Communications Manager here at Staffbase.

00:00:41: And today's guest is someone who sits at the intersection of creativity,

00:00:46: technology, and humanity, Pinaki Kathiari,

00:00:50: CEO and Owner of Local Wisdom.

00:00:53: For nearly two decades, Pinaki has led Local Wisdom's mission

00:00:57: to help communicators and marketing leaders bring complex ideas to life

00:01:01: through stories and visuals that truly resonate.

00:01:04: His team works behind the scenes with some of the world's biggest brands,

00:01:08: creating seamless digital experiences that empower communicators

00:01:11: to be more strategic while still staying human in how they connect.

00:01:16: He is also the Cofounder of Resource Hero,

00:01:19: a five-star Salesforce app helping organizations balance workloads,

00:01:24: track resources, and make better business decisions in real time.

00:01:28: And in today's episode, we're going to be talking about how to turn complexity

00:01:32: into clarity, the role of design and storytelling in internal comms,

00:01:37: and what it really means to make people feel more human at work.

00:01:41: So, that is quite the list.

00:01:43: Welcome today, Pinaki.

00:01:45: Is there anything I have missed off there?

00:01:48: Well, thank you so much, Lottie,

00:01:49: for having me, and thank you for that lovely introduction.

00:01:52: I feel like I need to

00:01:53: have you introduce me everywhere I go, but I think you've covered it.

00:01:57: I think you've covered it and I'm just excited to get into the topic.

00:02:00: This is exciting.

00:02:01: Amazing.

00:02:01: I do have to say, I also love your podcast, Why Does It Feel So Wrong?

00:02:05: So, I must admit, I've been feeling the pressure

00:02:08: on this podcast, but let's get into it.

00:02:12: No pressure. We'll just have a fun conversation.

00:02:14: Okay. I appreciate it. Thank you.

00:02:16: So, as I mentioned, you've spent almost two decades at Local Wisdom

00:02:20: helping global brands simplify really complex issues.

00:02:24: And you've mentioned before that your fascination with technology

00:02:27: design enables you to create solutions that are typically out of view.

00:02:33: So, could you tell me a bit

00:02:34: about that mindset and how it influences your role as CEO?

00:02:39: Yes, absolutely.

00:02:40: I think you said a little bit about it as far as the podcast,

00:02:44: Why Does It Feel So Wrong To Be Human At Work?

00:02:47: And it just occurred to me that a lot of what I do,

00:02:51: I try to

00:02:54: go a different way.

00:02:55: If everyone is zigging, I kind of zag.

00:02:58: And it's an interesting concept that came from

00:03:01: a lot of different things in my career.

00:03:02: But an example is that in the podcast, as you mentioned, it's very conversational.

00:03:08: And that was the concept of the podcast.

00:03:10: When we decided to do the podcast, it was a little bit more scripted.

00:03:14: And so, the first few episodes, when we were listening to it,

00:03:18: it looked like it's not holding that real conversational charm.

00:03:23: And it was because we knew what we were going to say.

00:03:24: You can't really have a conversation if you know what the other person

00:03:27: is going to say, because it takes away from the serendipity of it.

00:03:30: So, then we decided to simplify the complexity here because I think as humans,

00:03:35: we like to complexify things or make it more complicated.

00:03:39: So, we said, "Hey, you know what?

00:03:41: What if we just didn't know what the other person was saying

00:03:44: and started going at it from that standpoint?"

00:03:47: We still had the beats and knew that we had to stay on time,

00:03:51: but that serendipity made it so that when Chris [Lee] said a joke,

00:03:55: when I'm laughing, I'm really laughing and that really shines through, right?

00:03:59: So, I think that's where a lot of it comes from.

00:04:02: It's kind of like seeing things or being, I guess, maybe

00:04:06: brave enough to head into a little bit of unknown

00:04:10: to try to simplify where we are because, a lot of times, our brains will just

00:04:16: move us to this safe place.

00:04:18: And safe isn't always

00:04:21: easier in that way.

00:04:22: easier in that way.

00:04:23: Does that make sense what I'm saying?

00:04:24: It's a little bit ethereal because it's creative in that way.

00:04:27: No, absolutely.

00:04:28: I completely agree and it's something that I kind of . . .

00:04:31: As someone who's done podcasts before or public speaking, it's about

00:04:35: trying to make sure that you come into a conversation as prepared as you can be,

00:04:39: but without coming across too scripted, because then you lose this authenticity.

00:04:44: And I really feel like it's about finding that balance.

00:04:48: And I think a lot of the time, people come into something like this,

00:04:52: whether it be a podcast or a presentation or whatever it is that a leader

00:04:55: might be doing.

00:04:57: It's that they want to make sure that they have that clarity.

00:04:59: Therefore, they feel like they need to come in almost over-prepared to make sure

00:05:04: that the message that they want to get across is coming across.

00:05:08: And I know clarity is something that you talk a lot about that over the years.

00:05:12: So I'm curious, firstly, what your definition of clarity is.

00:05:16: And has that changed over the years and over your different career paths?

00:05:21: Yeah.

00:05:22: I think clarity for me might be coming

00:05:25: from what I'll call maybe a little bit of

00:05:30: undiagnosed OCD or something

00:05:32: like that in me from perhaps my family.

00:05:35: Like my dad, he used to keep all of his stuff

00:05:38: nicely, neatly organized in these boxes.

00:05:41: And if something was out of place, it would bother him.

00:05:47: And for me, it's kind of similar and I think about it as clarity.

00:05:52: For me, in communications, I really want to be sure and certain

00:05:58: that what I'm thinking and what comes out of my mouth

00:06:01: is translated in a correct way for whoever is now taking it in

00:06:04: because they're going to take some action on it.

00:06:07: So it's like if I'm not aiming it correctly,

00:06:11: we could miss the target.

00:06:13: And I think it came to me because of a story, because of a project

00:06:18: I worked on a long time ago, early in my career, I guess.

00:06:20: Speaking of podcasts, this was a long time ago before iPhones.

00:06:26: The Apple iPod was available, and podcasts had just come out.

00:06:31: And we had a client say, "Hey, I want to do a podcast.

00:06:34: Can you help us come up with a plan?" So, I was like, "Sure." And I said,

00:06:37: "Just to clarify, you want to create a series of audio recordings

00:06:42: that will then stream over RSS, and then people will download them

00:06:46: and get them on their iPod?" And he was like, "No,

00:06:50: we have an audio that we want to put on our website

00:06:53: that people can listen to." And I was like,

00:06:55: "Okay, wow, that's much different than what I'm thinking about here."

00:06:58: So if I didn't clarify that, we would have gone

00:07:01: into totally somewhere else and wasted a lot of time.

00:07:03: And I think that story keeps coming back to me to say that.

00:07:07: I just need to be certain that what we're both thinking about is the same picture.

00:07:12: Yeah, absolutely.

00:07:14: I really like that example because that's a lot of . . .

00:07:18: There's hundreds and thousands of books or podcasts, audiobooks

00:07:21: about communication.

00:07:23: But I find that reconfirming what it is that someone else is saying to you

00:07:28: is just a key component of any form of communication,

00:07:32: whether that be if you're having an argument with your partner

00:07:35: or you're coming to a business agreement with someone, that clarification of,

00:07:40: like, "This is what I'm understanding that you're saying."

00:07:44: So, I really appreciate the fact that someone like yourself has that

00:07:49: in the back of your mind as you're going through a lot of different things.

00:07:53: Yeah, a lot of these things have come from making mistakes in the past.

00:07:57: I've seen like if you're not clear and if you don't clarify what could happen,

00:08:01: and maybe it's a little bit of PTSD from that, where I'm like, "You know what?

00:08:04: I got to make sure that you really understand

00:08:06: what I'm talking about." So, yeah, you're right.

00:08:08: I often do clarify.

00:08:10: And I sometimes ask others to clarify or find ways to ask questions

00:08:14: to make sure it is clear, because we've all played

00:08:17: that game of telephone as kids, and we know what happens.

00:08:21: Absolutely, yeah.

00:08:22: We've all been there.

00:08:23: And the best thing you can do is obviously learn from your mistakes

00:08:26: rather than wallow, which is sometimes the easier thing to do.

00:08:30: As I mentioned in the intro, you've said before that your fascination

00:08:35: lies at this intersection of technology, design, and humanity.

00:08:41: So, can you talk me through what that means for you, and maybe

00:08:44: walk me through a moment in your career where those three forces collided?

00:08:51: Yes. What that means for me, I think it's

00:08:54: just something natural for me, mainly because of just,

00:08:59: I think, the way I was raised and part of my career path.

00:09:04: For example, as growing up,

00:09:07: I always wanted to be an engineer because my dad was an engineer.

00:09:10: And then high school came,

00:09:12: and I wanted to be a writer, a poet, an artist, a DJ, a music producer.

00:09:16: My dad was like, "No, you're going to go into engineering."

00:09:19: And, so, I went in college.

00:09:22: I studied computer science and psychology.

00:09:25: And in the world of work, I was a writer, an entrepreneur,

00:09:28: a consultant, designer, developer, played roles like information

00:09:32: architect, strategist, communicator, leader, marketer, sales.

00:09:36: And so I've been all over the place.

00:09:38: And I think, for that, it gives me this perspective.

00:09:42: So, I can see

00:09:45: when these things come together, what does it feel like,

00:09:48: because it almost is in me in that way.

00:09:51: A moment when those three things came together,

00:09:53: or all of these things came together, is in a

00:09:58: few different places. I guess

00:10:00: its really kind of right to the humanity comes into anything we do

00:10:04: with technology and design is trying to solve a human need.

00:10:09: And technology and design are different means to achieve that.

00:10:15: A few ways that it comes together.

00:10:16: One was, I think, when we create,

00:10:21: when we're concepting a solution, we're always thinking about that need.

00:10:25: For example, there was a solution

00:10:28: where an HR team approached us and asked,

00:10:32: "All right, we've set up these new competency models

00:10:36: for this organization, and we need a way to convey them."

00:10:40: And when we looked at all the documentation on it,

00:10:43: it was these thick binders that people had to open up, read,

00:10:47: find their place in, and learn where they need to go next.

00:10:50: And, so I said, "Hey, we have technology, and we have design.

00:10:50: And, so I said, "Hey, we have technology, and we have design.

00:10:52: Instead of giving them these binders, let's ask them a few questions

00:10:57: when they log on to this site, and then we'll actually just

00:11:02: get all the right components together and give them a little map

00:11:05: or a journey of where they are today and where they need to go."

00:11:10: It's thinking about these busy folks

00:11:13: who have to, now, adapt to this new model and comb through these documents.

00:11:19: And so, we're like, "Hey, let's bring some more humanity.

00:11:21: Let's save them some time and trouble by using technology and design just

00:11:26: to shape the information in a way that's just specific and relevant to them."

00:11:31: Love that.

00:11:32: I think that's a really, really good approach.

00:11:33: And actually, super interesting that you talk about your

00:11:38: trajectory into your career with this whole engineer versus DJ-type thing.

00:11:42: I'm constantly arguing with myself.

00:11:46: No, no, no, I had a similar thing where I didn't really know what I wanted

00:11:49: to be when I "grew" up.

00:11:51: So, I went down the

00:11:53: English/psychology, but also the physics/maths route.

00:11:56: I realized physics/maths is not for me.

00:11:59: Luckily, not something that I needed to bring into my daily life.

00:12:03: But I just love that you've taken

00:12:07: that knowledge and that passion that you have

00:12:09: for all of those different things and have found

00:12:12: a way to combine all of them rather than just saying, "Okay.

00:12:15: Well, I'm going down this route or that route."

00:12:18: Yeah, absolutely.

00:12:19: I want to challenge you to bring physics into this somehow because I think the key

00:12:24: part of your question, what I loved, is the intersectionality part.

00:12:29: Because it's like we have these different facets of our lives and whatnot.

00:12:32: And there's something really special and really you

00:12:37: about that intersection of these things.

00:12:40: It's funny.

00:12:42: Chuck Gose and I are working on a talk, and it's

00:12:45: actually relating physics concepts to communications.

00:12:49: And those two things don't match because communicators

00:12:53: do not like math and physics, but there's a correlation

00:12:55: and something really interesting that we could pick out from that.

00:12:59: Oh, my gosh.

00:12:59: Well, you'll have to bring me along for the ride with that, for sure.

00:13:03: Yes, we hope you're there.

00:13:04: Yeah, bring me along.

00:13:06: So, there was a point that you mentioned just now about,

00:13:11: rather than

00:13:12: giving people binders of all of this really complex information,

00:13:16: you started from a different point, like this out-of-the-box thinking.

00:13:19: And this is the question

00:13:20: that I've been really looking forward to ask you is because of this

00:13:24: turning complexity into simplicity, but without watering things down.

00:13:29: And that's something that I know I've personally struggled with, especially

00:13:31: if we're communicating a really technical operational change

00:13:35: or really safety-focused change, is making sure that you're

00:13:41: keeping it simple for people, but, like I say, without watering stuff down.

00:13:45: So, if you're faced with this really dense, technical content,

00:13:50: what is your first step in making that relatable?

00:13:54: And what do you find that communicators might be overlooking

00:13:58: in that process?

00:14:02: Yeah.

00:14:02: Great question, yeah.

00:14:05: Maybe the answer in there lies into that DJ part.

00:14:08: We're like mixing and mashing things together, too.

00:14:12: But I think it starts with the technical content, whatever that is.

00:14:17: I definitely need to understand it.

00:14:20: Maybe not the details of every little thing,

00:14:22: but I just conceptually understand what this is and it's trying to do,

00:14:26: and make sure that it is of value

00:14:28: because then we have a product issue if that's not of value.

00:14:32: The second thing would be just, and probably more

00:14:35: important, is to understand the audience and where are they

00:14:39: mentally, educationally, what's the kind of background, right?

00:14:43: As I was saying, all of our experiences shape who we are today.

00:14:48: So we're just like, "What is their background, and where are they today?"

00:14:52: I think many times, that's overlooked because it's like the business has a need

00:14:57: to do something.

00:14:58: And we're not really thinking about the other person

00:15:01: and where they are in that.

00:15:03: And it's really interesting.

00:15:04: I liken it to parent-child relationships all the time.

00:15:08: Because when I want someone to do

00:15:11: ABC, so, I communicate them and tell them to do ABC.

00:15:15: but if I'm not approaching it with empathy and where they are,

00:15:19: the message is not going to land correctly.

00:15:21: Actually, in fact, I have a five-year-old, so we have a young one again.

00:15:25: And I'm kind of relearning different ways of parenting.

00:15:29: So, when you're communicating

00:15:32: in a time when children are angry

00:15:36: or disappointed or frustrated,

00:15:39: parts of their brain where they're understanding and taking in

00:15:44: logic and communication is just not working.

00:15:46: We're in this animal part of our brain.

00:15:48: So, it's understanding, "All right, where are they

00:15:52: today or where are they right now?

00:15:54: How do I get them to a state first of taking in information?"

00:16:00: And then let me give them the information in a way that's made for them.

00:16:05: Actually, if I take it back to that example with

00:16:10: the competency model in HR, we had these new dense

00:16:16: competency models, which had career

00:16:19: progression paths with specific roles, and what you need to do

00:16:24: and trainings that you needed to do to level up.

00:16:27: And then on the other side, we have

00:16:30: marketers who were global

00:16:33: across the globe and very busy as marketers are.

00:16:38: And they want to grow and sell, but how do we then find the right way?

00:16:42: So, we concepted that product.

00:16:47: And then, in communicating it, it wasn't like

00:16:51: the new competency model or learn the new competency model.

00:16:55: It was like, "Welcome to your career coach." So we're now talking to them

00:17:00: in a language that's now attuned to what they're interested in.

00:17:05: And it draws some interest from them, too.

00:17:09: And it conveys that, "This is a coach.

00:17:12: We're helping you. This is going to be easy.

00:17:13: We're pulling you along the way.

00:17:15: We're asking you questions to draw out the right answers for you and things

00:17:18: like that." And so that's really where it comes from.

00:17:21: It's like taking that step back to say, "Where are they?"

00:17:24: And how do I change this message or communicate it in a way

00:17:28: that we could actually get in their minds, and then be open and receptive to,

00:17:33: as opposed to defensive and, "Oh, here's another thing I have to do."

00:17:37: I love that.

00:17:39: It's wild how much you can do with something like that

00:17:42: because it's not any different information that you're conveying to them.

00:17:45: It's just figuring out where they are and just shifting that perspective of,

00:17:49: "How do we want people to receive this?" Therefore, what do we need to do

00:17:53: in order to make that happen?

00:17:54: Absolutely, it's kind of like . . .

00:17:57: I'm sorry to cut you off. I apologize.

00:18:00: I'll just say it like this, too, because it might resonate.

00:18:03: As parents or whatnot, or even at home

00:18:07: dynamics, you're like, "I want someone to do something.

00:18:10: I want my son to take out the garbage or the trash." And I could just

00:18:14: forcefully tell them, "Hey, we have to do it," or we could talk

00:18:18: and get to an understanding of the type of home we want to keep

00:18:23: and get a higher level of understanding of what it means to be this way.

00:18:29: Love that.

00:18:31: Maybe use this

00:18:31: trash example with my husband.

00:18:35: Yes, exactly.

00:18:37: You know what?

00:18:37: If you're angry at him for [not] taking out the trash,

00:18:40: you're not going to have a constructive conversation about how to fix it, right?

00:18:43: Absolutely.

00:18:45: I really like that bit that you talk about, understanding your audience.

00:18:48: And I think that's something that communicators

00:18:51: in general, also marketers, are really good at doing,

00:18:55: understanding the audience, knowing where they're at,

00:18:59: how much time they have in their day

00:19:00: to read communications, all of that kind of stuff.

00:19:02: But something really resonated

00:19:03: with me there when you talked about understanding the content yourself.

00:19:07: And I think even just recently, we had some organizational change at Staffbase.

00:19:12: It was a new sales process that came in.

00:19:14: And I was working through the comms that this person had put together,

00:19:17: and I was just like, "I don't know whether this is good comms or not

00:19:20: because I don't understand what this change in process is."

00:19:24: And it was only when I then just dropped a five-minute diary entry

00:19:28: with this guy, and we just talked about it.

00:19:29: I was like, "Can you just talk me through what this actually is?"

00:19:32: And as soon as I understood it, I was like, "Okay.

00:19:35: Now, I can figure out how to communicate this." So, I think that is something

00:19:39: that we probably forget more as communicators

00:19:42: because we think, "Well, we don't need to know the technical stuff.

00:19:45: We're just portraying the message." But as soon as I understand what this process

00:19:51: actually looked like and what it meant for the people it was impacting,

00:19:54: I was like, "Cool, I know how to write these comms." So,

00:19:58: that absolutely resonates with me there.

00:20:01: And you having that conversation and that dialogue, a dialogue helps you to

00:20:08: shape how you want to get the information or how best you learn information.

00:20:12: So you're asking questions, "Let me understand this," so

00:20:15: you could not only understand it, but also validate its value, right?

00:20:19: Because if it's not a great idea, you'd be like, "Wait a minute."

00:20:24: If it didn't make value for the whole company,

00:20:26: you'd be like, "Wait a minute," because you need to do that

00:20:29: before being able to convey that value the other way around.

00:20:34: Kudos to you.

00:20:35: Thank you.

00:20:36: Finally figured it out.

00:20:38: And actually, I want to ask a bit of a follow-up question.

00:20:41: We've talked about simplifying technical content,

00:20:45: but I guess another element of communication is talking

00:20:48: about that more human-centric, bad-news delivery.

00:20:52: So, for example, company reorg, there's going to be layoffs.

00:20:56: And I've certainly been guilty of it myself,

00:20:58: but I've seen it with leaders, too, where they kind of almost dial up

00:21:02: this empathy, humanity, over-communicate,

00:21:05: because they're delivering something that's quite humanly impactful.

00:21:10: How do we make sure that when we're delivering bad news

00:21:13: that we still lead with clarity?

00:21:16: Yes. I'm curious to know, because I've seen some things also more

00:21:21: the other way around, where it's just too little communication and whatnot.

00:21:25: What are examples of over-humanizing communications

00:21:32: are you seeing in these situations, if you don't mind me asking?

00:21:35: I think it's very much to do with leaders understand that there are going to be

00:21:40: some people that are scared by this, frustrated by this, and rather than just

00:21:46: going straight to the message, which is, "Hey, we're doing a reorg,

00:21:50: X many people are leaving,"

00:21:53: that they go through this almost

00:21:56: really long-winded narrative.

00:21:57: Oh, yes, this transformational narrative of

00:22:02: streamlining and operationalizing.

00:22:06: I know what you mean now. Okay, cool.

00:22:08: You know, to look at it from the other perspective, as I've been on

00:22:13: that side of the fence as well,

00:22:14: it is not fun.

00:22:17: And when we have to deliver bad news as humans, we just don't like to do that.

00:22:21: And so, I understand it.

00:22:24: You try to, I think,

00:22:27: hide or subdue the pain that

00:22:30: this event is going to cause a lot of people.

00:22:34: And so, it becomes natural to try to sugarcoat it

00:22:39: or to try to lengthen it or avoid it.

00:22:42: I don't want to take out the garbage.

00:22:44: So, let me avoid it.

00:22:48: That's where it's coming from.

00:22:49: So, I guess in one aspect, the fact that they are feeling that is a good thing.

00:22:56: And it happens to the best of us when we're all in a state

00:23:00: of stress, pressure, and levels of sadness and anger.

00:23:04: So, I think communicators, I think that's where

00:23:09: it is really important to have this relationship

00:23:13: with your communicator and your leader, to be able to have these

00:23:17: difficult conversations.

00:23:19: I understand this initiative, or I understand the way you're

00:23:22: going about it.

00:23:23: I think it would resonate best if we were a little bit

00:23:26: more straightforward with it or straight up with it and honest about it.

00:23:33: I know it's really scary.

00:23:35: So, what I tell folks

00:23:36: and what I've done in the past is I'm more honest upfront about it.

00:23:40: And I'm

00:23:43: going out of my way or, as a company or organization,

00:23:47: we're all going out of our way to help anyone who's impacted.

00:23:50: So, I'm letting out

00:23:53: the news earlier, giving them

00:23:57: an ample window, and we're all finding ways to help each other out.

00:24:02: There's things that we've done.

00:24:03: So, it changes from a transformation

00:24:08: to help the company to a transformation to help the company, but this is a

00:24:13: bad byproduct of it, if it needs to be that way.

00:24:17: And here's how we're going to support this bad byproduct of it.

00:24:21: So, for those who are impacted, we're

00:24:25: doing this, we're doing this, we're doing things like that.

00:24:28: So, we've done resume updates, mock interviews,

00:24:33: where I'm personally reaching out to folks

00:24:36: who might have a need for people being impacted and things like that.

00:24:40: I know not everyone could do all of those things,

00:24:43: but just showing up earlier,

00:24:45: saying what's happening, and really trying to support those

00:24:50: who are impacted in that negative way, I think, goes a long way.

00:24:53: My whole philosophy in business and networking and things like that,

00:24:58: I think companies come and go.

00:25:00: I think relationships are

00:25:03: key across companies, right?

00:25:04: Even when you and I had met, you were in a different role

00:25:08: within Staffbase and a different sort of relationship

00:25:10: with Staffbase, but our relationship is stronger

00:25:14: throughout all of the different roles that you've been.

00:25:16: And wherever we go next, we'll be thinking of each other and being like,

00:25:20: "Maybe I need to get Lottie on my podcast," and things like that.

00:25:24: Oh, I mean, please, absolutely, would love that.

00:25:28: I think it's really interesting what you say there about that.

00:25:31: I guess, usually, a lot of what we as communicators

00:25:35: want to put across is the, "Why is this happening?"

00:25:38: But when you see really impactful change comms, I think people tend to care

00:25:42: less about the why, or they don't care about the why first.

00:25:46: They care about the what first.

00:25:48: "What does this mean for me?"

00:25:50: And I guess the, "How will you support me through this?"

00:25:54: before I maybe end up caring,

00:25:56: or maybe even not caring about the why.

00:25:59: Exactly.

00:26:00: The why is irrelevant for some people, right?

00:26:03: Yes, exactly.

00:26:05: So, now, I know I feel like we can't go through this podcast without talking

00:26:09: about AI, because that's just something that's just so, so huge at the moment.

00:26:14: And when I was doing some prep for this podcast, I saw a post on your LinkedIn,

00:26:18: where you were talking about the Harvard Business Review that there was

00:26:23: a stat in there that said 62% of employees use AI to draft emails or documents.

00:26:28: I am in part of that.

00:26:30: But 42% of leaders can't tell if it's from their team or whether it's AI,

00:26:36: which you said, rightfully so, leads to an erosion of trust.

00:26:40: And I really love what you said, that

00:26:41: AI should be a co-pilot rather than a ghostwriter.

00:26:45: Can you talk me through your thoughts on that?

00:26:49: Yeah.

00:26:50: There's two things that I think led me there

00:26:54: besides the Harvard Business Review data.

00:26:57: The first was I found myself sometimes playing too much

00:27:00: with an AI to make it sound like me.

00:27:05: If I'm using AI to ghostwrite for me, I'm like, "That's not exactly me.

00:27:09: I'll change this, I'll change that.

00:27:10: It's not exactly this." So,

00:27:12: what started being more helpful for me is to draft up ideas,

00:27:16: and then perhaps have it edit and us working together in that way.

00:27:21: But I think

00:27:23: solely relying on an AI to write for

00:27:26: you and be a ghostwriter, one, it's innately not you.

00:27:31: Because even if it wasn't AI, if it was someone else writing it,

00:27:35: it's still not you, so there's that.

00:27:39: There's a trust element there, which has been going on for all this time

00:27:42: because executives have communicators and writers

00:27:46: who write their speeches and things like that.

00:27:47: So that's nothing new.

00:27:49: But it's like the communicators are human,

00:27:52: and there's still a touch of humanness to all of that.

00:27:56: The second thing is something that happened to me.

00:27:59: I met somebody because I meet folks all the time.

00:28:03: We connected on LinkedIn.

00:28:04: We also had a good conversation on Zoom.

00:28:09: And I think it was a week or two later,

00:28:11: I get a LinkedIn message and this person was asking me

00:28:15: for my thoughts on something, some advice on something.

00:28:19: Actually,

00:28:21: it was late at night.

00:28:21: I was in bed, and I'm typing up this response.

00:28:24: I just got this eerie feeling and thought.

00:28:26: I was like, "Wait, is this a bot?"

00:28:29: And so, I saved my response somewhere else

00:28:35: and I responded by asking a question or a clarifying question to see

00:28:41: if it was a bot or what the response would be from this person.

00:28:45: And I did ask, and I actually never got a response back.

00:28:49: And so, I was like, "Yes."

00:28:52: So it, a little bit, confirmed this belief or idea that it's a bot.

00:28:57: It was the way the question was worded.

00:28:59: And when I was thinking about our conversation, that made me think this.

00:29:03: So I was like, it's one thing for us

00:29:06: to have a working relationship when you need advice

00:29:12: or another opinion on something, and I could offer that to you.

00:29:16: It's another thing if you're blasting a network and mining

00:29:19: data off of a collective audience.

00:29:22: And I think if this person would have been honest

00:29:26: about that intent, I would have responded much better.

00:29:29: But it seemed a little,

00:29:33: I'm not saying dishonest, but

00:29:34: it didn't seem as genuine as an actual conversation.

00:29:38: So, all of those two things got me together thinking that what happens

00:29:44: when we know that all comms

00:29:47: and all emails are generated and sent by AI in the future?

00:29:52: How are we going to feel about the relationships with our managers

00:29:56: or our coworkers or anyone?

00:29:59: It's like you start questioning that relationship

00:30:05: and trust fabric here because,

00:30:09: nonetheless, the AI doesn't care at the end of the day.

00:30:14: It can potentially empathize, but it doesn't truly care.

00:30:18: Yeah, absolutely.

00:30:19: And I totally agree with what you say there about that.

00:30:23: It's not necessarily that it's dishonesty, but I guess it's

00:30:26: that inauthenticity, which is something that we talk about a lot in comms.

00:30:31: And there are definitely things that I can spot myself

00:30:34: when someone sent a comm that is AI-generated.

00:30:38: I think there's this ChatGPT hyphen that it hyphenates everything.

00:30:43: I use a lot of hyphens in my writing anyway, but the ChatGPT one is somehow

00:30:46: a little bit longer.

00:30:48: Yes, the em dash.

00:30:52: But something that I try and do,

00:30:53: so one of the big uses for AI for me is I will write a message.

00:30:58: I need to ask someone to do something for me,

00:31:01: and I'll write what I would say conversationally,

00:31:05: but it needs to be in a Slack message to an exec leadership member.

00:31:08: So, they have not much time.

00:31:11: I need to give them enough context,

00:31:13: but not too much context that they don't have time to read it.

00:31:17: I need them to know what actions I require from them,

00:31:20: but I also want to come across firm but polite.

00:31:23: And I think that's

00:31:24: a really good way of using it because it's still authentically my voice.

00:31:28: I'm just tailoring it to my audience.

00:31:31: And I think that you don't lose authenticity there.

00:31:35: You're just trying to, I guess, dial up the productivity of it.

00:31:39: Yeah, in that scenario, you're working with an editor in that way.

00:31:43: So, it's more of a creative process.

00:31:47: You're brainstorming with someone as opposed to telling me, "Just write this

00:31:50: and send this for me." And I think that's

00:31:55: the difference here.

00:31:57: There's something I thought of in there because

00:32:00: there's been times when I'm sending emails, and I want it to end

00:32:03: with, "And I typed this email myself." You know what I mean?

00:32:08: Because there's something about the time it takes me to type an email

00:32:12: to someone that's showing

00:32:16: a bit of care or showing a bit of love. Like, I took the time to do this.

00:32:19: I didn't just push a button and do that.

00:32:22: So, I think there's something to that effect, but I totally agree.

00:32:27: Just to be clear,

00:32:29: I'm sitting in this in-between of

00:32:33: AI hype and apocalypse.

00:32:35: But it is incredibly helpful and time-saving for me.

00:32:40: I do use it, and I am using it to save a lot of time, crunch

00:32:44: a lot of information, and I am getting a lot of value from the use of AI.

00:32:50: So, I just wanted to clarify and want to make sure that I'm

00:32:54: not in one way or the other at this very moment.

00:32:57: Good to know.

00:32:58: Thank you for clarifying.

00:32:59: Yes, we just have to be careful.

00:33:02: Yeah, no, I'm not terrified.

00:33:04: We just have to be careful.

00:33:05: It is an extremely powerful tool that

00:33:08: we all have access to in our back pockets.

00:33:11: And that's probably

00:33:13: the main interesting thing about it, what we can do.

00:33:17: If you don't mind, I'll share another quick story on AI, just to be careful.

00:33:20: Of course.

00:33:21: Is that I was talking to an

00:33:24: HR executive, maybe about a month ago, and she was telling me

00:33:28: the story of how she had to rewrite an email that

00:33:33: a leader was going to send to the whole team.

00:33:35: And I was like, "Oh, man, you should have

00:33:38: just told them to use ChatGPT."

00:33:41: And they were like, "The leader did,"

00:33:44: and I was like, "Oh, so it wrote

00:33:47: that type of email, even

00:33:50: to GPT." So it's, again,

00:33:54: giving me pause to think, "We have to be careful

00:33:57: because the AI is giving us the answer that we want to hear

00:34:01: or think we want to hear." So, what you were saying is using it

00:34:07: as an editor is a great thing.

00:34:09: Another great use for AI is to use it as an empathizer.

00:34:13: So, I'm sending this message to this audience.

00:34:17: How would they take it? How would they interpret it?

00:34:20: What are some of the objections that they might have to it?

00:34:24: That is a great way for you to then start with you and then start

00:34:29: crafting or finding different ways to make the communication better.

00:34:34: Absolutely.

00:34:35: And on a really similar note,

00:34:36: I was at a conference the other day, and they were talking about using AI

00:34:39: as a challenger.

00:34:40: So, on a similar way, is that like, "I think this audience

00:34:44: will take this from my communication, or I think they might feel this way.

00:34:48: Challenge me.

00:34:50: Give me some things that I might not have thought

00:34:52: about before." And again, that's that you're not losing authenticity.

00:34:56: It's just improving something that is already there that exists.

00:35:01: Exactly.

00:35:02: And I think that's really what's key in the use of AI.

00:35:05: It's like the way you use it, I think, as we've seen, can

00:35:10: increase or erode trust.

00:35:13: And we want to kind of lean towards it increasing trust.

00:35:16: For sure.

00:35:17: And on a similar level then, not just talking about AI specifically,

00:35:22: but what does innovation look like for you today?

00:35:26: And how do you decide which emerging technologies are worth

00:35:31: the time spent integrating them into your communication strategies?

00:35:36: Ooh, that's a good question.

00:35:38: Innovation.

00:35:39: Innovation is fun because it's always scary.

00:35:42: I think that's one of the things about innovation that I think

00:35:45: it always has this interesting emotional pull.

00:35:48: But I think for anyone who's

00:35:52: asking for something innovative, you're asking for fear.

00:35:56: And you have to be comfortable with that because, by

00:35:59: definition, innovation is doing something new.

00:36:02: And whenever any of us are doing something new, there's a bit of fear there.

00:36:07: So, it's one of the things that I've come to grips.

00:36:11: I think the most innovative things that I've created

00:36:15: really do start off as a pain point

00:36:17: that I've seen and witnessed and felt.

00:36:20: And for me, the process is

00:36:25: understanding this pain its about just . . .

00:36:28: It's funny.

00:36:30: Through different experiences, different ideas, and random

00:36:33: things come together, and it forms this idea of,

00:36:37: "Ooh, that's very interesting,"

00:36:39: and then my heart pounds a little, and then I can't get it out of my mind.

00:36:43: You know, we started this with the podcast,

00:36:45: Why Does It Feel So Wrong to Be Human At Work?

00:36:48: That started with me as a pain point.

00:36:52: And it came from, we have monthly all-hands roundtables at Local Wisdom.

00:36:57: And as part of that, we have a ceremony

00:37:00: where, at the beginning, we give each other kudos.

00:37:04: Anyone can get up and say thank you

00:37:08: to someone else for something specific that they did within that last month.

00:37:11: And it's a fun time.

00:37:12: Sometimes it's short.

00:37:13: Sometimes it could go on long.

00:37:15: When it goes long, like past 20 minutes, I've noticed people

00:37:20: starting to apologize for having more thank yous to say.

00:37:24: And I've said, "Hey, if we spend this whole time

00:37:26: just thanking each other, that's a win." But people still felt that urge.

00:37:31: And at times, I even felt that urge.

00:37:33: I actually did apologize. "I'm sorry.

00:37:34: I have a few more thank yous to give."

00:37:37: And it just came out.

00:37:38: And then when it came out, I thought about it right afterwards.

00:37:40: I'm like, "Wow,

00:37:40: why does it feel so wrong

00:37:42: to just sit here and thank each other for the work that we've done?"

00:37:44: There are so many positives that come out of it.

00:37:46: There's training out of it. There's

00:37:49: repeated learning that comes out of it. So,

00:37:52: that thought says, "All right, there's this pain of something that feels right

00:37:57: to be human to thank each other, but it feels wrong in the work context."

00:38:02: And that's where the concept emerged right now.

00:38:06: And it was like, I think you could ask my wife and son,

00:38:10: because I kind of came out, it was like,

00:38:11: "I want to come up with this concept called Why Does It Feel So Wrong

00:38:15: To Be Human At Work?" And they looked at me blinking like, "Are you crazy?

00:38:19: That's weird." But I think if you have a great idea

00:38:23: and you tell someone that and they're not a little afraid of it,

00:38:28: then your idea is too normal.

00:38:30: They've heard of it before.

00:38:31: It's not really that innovative.

00:38:33: Yeah, absolutely. Love that way of thinking.

00:38:35: And can I just say, genuinely, vouch for the podcast.

00:38:38: I've been listening to it the last couple of weeks, and I really, really enjoy it.

00:38:42: Really appreciate it.

00:38:43: Thank you so much, Lottie.

00:38:44: Of course.

00:38:44: Well, unfortunately, we are coming to the end of our time today,

00:38:48: but before I let you go, I wanted to give you a couple of quickfire

00:38:52: questions just to really put you on the spot.

00:38:56: So, number one, if you could fix one thing

00:39:00: about how people communicate at work, what would that be?

00:39:05: I would say

00:39:06: before speaking,

00:39:09: think about where that response is coming from even in yourself.

00:39:13: A lot of times, if we are angry at someone for someone

00:39:17: or get a certain feeling about someone else

00:39:19: for something that's happening, it's usually because there's something in us

00:39:23: that they're tugging at that we're not comfortable with in ourselves.

00:39:26: So, look inside before we communicate outwards.

00:39:31: Fabulous. Love that.

00:39:33: Great answer. And now, one more.

00:39:35: I gave this whole spiel in your intro about all of your accolades

00:39:38: and all these incredible things that you've done

00:39:40: and the tools that you've built

00:39:41: and the teams that you've led and the podcast that you host.

00:39:44: Is there one daily habit that you have that

00:39:47: keeps you grounded?

00:39:51: Yeah. The first thing that came to my mind is

00:39:53: the habit of having time to think.

00:39:56: And sometimes, admittedly, I will feel guilty for having time to think.

00:40:02: But at the end of the day,

00:40:04: I am always grateful for making that time to think and reset

00:40:09: all the things that are happening

00:40:10: and taking in all the things that are happening so I could respond

00:40:15: in a more

00:40:18: calm, reasonable, rational way

00:40:20: after I've had a chance to have everything settle.

00:40:25: Love that. Couldn't agree more.

00:40:26: And something that I've tried to

00:40:27: be doing more of this year is giving myself grace and space,

00:40:31: and whether that's to think about how you're truly feeling about something

00:40:36: or to just give yourself 10 minutes to not feel guilty about lying in bed and

00:40:41: reading a book or taking time

00:40:44: to myself to go on a run rather than walk the dog, all of these things.

00:40:47: I think it's just making sure you also don't feel guilty

00:40:50: about taking that time as well.

00:40:53: Yeah.

00:40:54: I'll freestyle just a little bit real quick because it reminded me

00:40:57: of something back to your physics learning.

00:41:02: And I remember thinking of something

00:41:04: where pressure also creates pressure.

00:41:08: If you're pushing forward, I guess there's, oh, man, what is the . . .

00:41:14: When you're pushing forward, the world is trying to always create balance.

00:41:19: So if you're pushing . . .

00:41:21: like I want A, B, and C a lot, and you're moving it forward,

00:41:25: the world wants you to not have it because it wants to be balanced.

00:41:29: But if you don't want A, B, and C, or

00:41:32: think about how do I go the other way around,

00:41:35: the world will try to create balance and get you A, B, and C.

00:41:39: Wild stuff.

00:41:41: Let that sink in for a second.

00:41:42: There you go.

00:41:43: This is a real mic-drop moment.

00:41:45: And the fact that you've managed to bring physics into it,

00:41:47: which is something that I admitted

00:41:49: I didn't think was possible, but absolutely, that's a super example.

00:41:53: Thank you so much.

00:41:53: There's a physics law behind that one, and I can't come up with it.

00:41:56: I forgot it off the top of my head, but I'll probably drop you a post later.

00:42:00: You're asking the wrong person.

00:42:02: Absolutely.

00:42:03: Well, thank you so, so much for joining us today, Pinaki.

00:42:05: I've genuinely learned a lot from this conversation.

00:42:07: So, I'm sure that listeners will have some great nuggets to take away.

00:42:12: Before I let you go, quickly, can you let the people know where they can connect

00:42:15: with you, learn more about Local Wisdom, or tune into the podcast?

00:42:20: Absolutely, yes.

00:42:22: How much time you got? I'm just kidding.

00:42:24: Connect with me on LinkedIn.

00:42:25: You'll find Pinaki Kathiari.

00:42:27: There's not many of me out there.

00:42:29: Find Local Wisdom.

00:42:31: We're localwisdom.com.

00:42:33: We're like spackle for comms teams.

00:42:35: So, if you have a crack in talent,

00:42:38: technology, strategy, or execution, we can fill that and make it stronger.

00:42:42: And wherever you listen to podcasts, just search, Why Does It Feel So Wrong

00:42:45: To Be Human At Work? And you'll find us there.

00:42:48: Thank you, Lottie, and thank you, Staffbase.

00:42:50: Of course.

00:42:51: Thank you so much. I have been Lottie Bazley.

00:42:53: And I hope you've enjoyed this podcast, this episode of Aspire to Inspire.

00:42:57: Be sure to join us again soon.

00:42:59: Thank you so much.

00:43:01: Thank you. Be well, everybody.

00:43:04: Hey, if you're getting value from today's conversation,

00:43:08: make sure you subscribe right now

00:43:10: so you don't miss any future episodes of the Aspire to Inspire Podcast.